Interfering with obstruction! Umpire Coaching Podcast #3
James: Then I also heard that everybody was screaming and shouting on the field, and the kids came out. How do you guys handle messes like that?
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James: Hey everybody! This is James, and welcome to umpirecoaching.com. This is a podcast that's intended specifically for umpires and coaches of Little League baseball and softball. The topic is interference and obstruction, so we're just going to go around the room and give a brief introduction. Again. I'm James. I've been umpiring and coaching as a volunteer since the turn of the century. We've been putting this together as a package to really help people who are coming in. We offer some insight on some interesting rules and training opportunities with the games of baseball and softball. So Roger, if you could introduce yourself real quick?
Roger: I'm Roger. I have been an umpire for about five years now. I coach at various levels, and I'm a parent of two teenagers who are in high school and middle school and are going through their own baseball journeys.
James: excellent. Nick?
Nick: Well, this coming season is my 37th season. I also umpire high school games. I used to umpire what is now USA softball. I've been selected to work two Little League softball division world series and have been selected for a couple of regional tournaments. I’ve taught many local rule clinics and umpire clinics, even a little bit in the western region...
James: …and Brent…
Brent: Yeah, I've been umpiring way too long. more than Nick, and definitely before the turn of the century. I've had the good fortune to umpire in three regionals and one junior girls softball world series in Kirkland, Washington.
James: awesome. All right. So the topic is obstruction and interference. Everyone here listening is going to get the benefit of two individuals who I would consider at the professorial level when it comes to umpiring, and this is their forte. We're just going to kind of ease into this and talk a little bit about why interference and obstruction are important and discuss a little bit about the details. Starting at the top of the page, Brent, if you've got some things to start with, we’ll just go from there...
Brent: Basic thing to think about: we're talking about the concepts to remember when you're talking about both obstruction and interference and what's happening during the game on a batted ball. The defensive players have 100 percent of the right of way to field the batted ball. Once it's fielded or it's settled in the ground and somebody's going to go pick it up, then the runner has 100 percent of the right-of-way to the base path that they establish as they're running around the bases until there's somebody in front of them with a ball waiting to make a play on them. So that's what you've got to think about when you're thinking, and basically, by definition, if we want to start off with obstruction, The obstruction is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball, impedes the progress of any runner. A fake tag is considered obstruction.
Nick: Going back to, uh, Brent's comment about the defense having 100% of the right-of-way on a batted ball Only one Fielder receives that protection. The fielder that the umpire judges has the play, or however you want to state that, that it is the only one that gets protection. So if you've got, say, two fielders converging on a battered ball, only one of those fielders is going to be protected.
James: So, you know, as far as definitions of terms go, let's break this down because you know what's confusing? I hadn't thought of it before, but they use interference when they're talking about the defense in some cases. I don't think they use the word obstruction when they're talking about the offense, but isn't it correct that the word interference is used in the book in reference to the defense?
Nick: The basic rule is that the offense interferes and the defense obstructs. Many, if not virtually all, managers and coaches really don't understand those terms, and they're coming out and asking you for an interference call on what was an obstruction play or a possible obstruction play.
Brent: The one that you're talking about, James, is the only one that should be called obstruction, which Little League calls interference. That's why people get confused. In other organizations, it's called catcher's obstruction, not catcher's interference.
James: Are those concepts that different in softball...
Brent: For little league. The rule books are exactly the same. But what I'm saying is that in other organizations, Fielder is obstructing. So in this case, the batter swings the bat, and the catcher has their glove out there. Did they obstruct? Did they impede or do you know the progress of that batter? Unfortunately, little league baseball and Major League Baseball call it catcher's interference.
James: Roger, do you want to read the rule that you typed in there? Roger typed this in before you guys came in this morning and dressed it up for us, and we appreciate it. but Roger typed all that stuff in himself. which I thought was so cool. Thank you, Roger, but yeah, if you would read that first line thereabout.
Roger: Nick has already read that, though. I think that we're going to talk about interference or A and B, right? so I can read that part. So let me…
James: Well, Nick wrote some stuff in here, so let's have him go ahead and read that.
Nick: In general, another way to restate the definition of obstruction is that if a runner has to slow down, stop, change direction, or veer out of the path that they're taking because of a fielder's action other than fielding a batted ball, we have obstruction. There does not have to be contact between a fielder and a runner in order to call obstruction. a couple examples of obstructions that may not be so obvious that they are obstructions. You have a fielder that is going to make a play on a batted ball, and they boot the initial play. The ball deflects off to the side. The fielder gets in the runner's way as they chase after the ball. There's no interference on this play because the fielder booted the ball. The runner had the expectation that the fielder was going to catch the ball, and they didn't. so that's the fielder's fault. The fielder can be protected on that initial play if they can still retrieve the ball within a step and a reach. They can still be considered in the act of fielding the ball and would be protected.
James: So my question on that is, to be , to be clear, let's say first base. the ball's hit to first base, he goes for it, somehow kicking it with his foot. Now when he goes to get that ball after he kicked it, are you saying he's no longer protected?
Nick: That's correct.
James: That's a really good one. I know lots of scenarios where that would apply, especially at the lower levels. So then your next part here as far as the field is that they're yielding 100 percent of the bag when they're coming in to get to the base. You've got the runner coming from third. You have a catcher who's camping out on the plate without a baseball, waiting for the throw from the outfield. This happens every day, all day. The kid’s standing there. I'm watching, and I'm thinking, Okay, as a plate umpire, I'm thinking, okay, he's got to yield the bag. I don't yet have a runner in the bag.He's coming down, and so I'm standing there watching. As soon as I have a runner that is hitting his slide, now the catcher has the ball and there's a tag. What are you looking for as umpires to judge whether you're just going to call whatever the result of the throw was or obstruction? What are you watching for?
Nick: One thing about obstruction—it's not an automatic call. In your scenario, we have a catcher who is standing on the plate waiting for a throw to come in and a runner coming in from third base trying to score. We don't have obstruction until we see the runner react to the catcher's presence. We see the runner slow down, alter their path, or something like that. If the runner keeps coming, and if I understood what you were describing, the runner keeps coming without slowing down or anything, and the throw does reach the catchers. And now, just as the runner is starting their slide, the catcher has possession of the ball. Now the runner if they're just starting their slide. It means they're a few feet away from the plate, and the catcher turns and makes a tag. Did you see the runner slow down or alter their path? If the answer is no, then we don't have obstruction, but you'll get an argument that, well, he was standing on the plate and the runner couldn't get there. I didn't see the runner show me that he couldn't get there.
Brent: The main example of that is any motion, however slight, to alter their course. Now you've got obstruction. We do not enforce it the way MLB does, which is that the catcher sets up there before they've received the ball. That's obstruction all day long. they score the run, they must be positioned in front of home plate.
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James: Does that have anything to do with that scenario? Does that have anything to do with how far away the runner is from the bag? the distance from the bag? If he's 10 feet off third base and the catcher's standing there, he turns around and goes back. That's not obstruction, is it? You still have to have a runner impeded by the bag, correct?
Nick: Well, it could be an obstruction. That's where umpire judgment comes in. If he's 30 feet away from a home plate, I'm probably not going to call that obstruction. but if he's 10 feet away from home plate, well yeah, now he's in the range where he's reacting to the presence of the defensive player.
Brent: It used to say in the book that the player was not supposed to initially set up in the base path. They might have finally removed that.
Roger: I have a follow-up to this. So we're saying that as soon as the runner takes what the umpire determines is an action they wouldn't have otherwise taken because of the position of the defensive player, that's when we have obstruction? We have kids at the lower levels that do all sorts of things all the time. and to understand their intent is tricky at best. So how would you make that kind of assessment for when a runner was just like, there's a kid there and I'm going to turn around. It looks like they're about to catch the ball, and I'm going to turn around. not that there is blocking or whatever. How do you make that assessment on that one?
Brent: I haven't had them turn around so much. What I have is that they've established their path towards home plate. Now they see the players set up in the line, and they adjust slightly to their right to try to go around. As soon as they make that adjustment, because the player's standing there, I now have obstruction because they've altered their base path because there's a person in front of them without the ball.
Nick: What Brent said there is important. Let's not lose sight of the fact that the defensive player does not have possession of the ball when we're calling obstruction. If they have possession of the ball, play on. Whatever happens, happens.
Roger. I've seen it a lot of times, especially in the 12U range, where they look and watch, whether it's the catcher, third baseman, or second baseman, whatever.They're watching that player, and that player looks like they're about to catch the ball, you know. They're making that body motion where they're starting to look like they're going to catch a ball, and they turn around because of that. versus the scenario where they're turning around because the base is blocked. How would you make that assessment between turning around because it looks like I'm going to get out because I misjudged where the ball is because I don't know because it's behind? I'm blocked, so I'm turning around or I'm not making the right play because of obstruction. Does that make sense, or am I...
Brent: Yeah, I understand what you're saying. However, over the many decades, the amount of times a player has stopped and turned around has been maybe a handful. It doesn't happen. They come home or they go to second. They keep going. They just don't go back.
James: So then, since we're talking about home plate, let's just try to cover as many scenarios of obstruction and interference at home plate as possible. The one that I know personally is my son, who was at a state baseball tournament. He's the batter. I think we had two outs. There's a passed ball with a runner at third. The runner at third’s coming home. My son's the batter. I taught him that in the passed ball scenario, you need to seek the opposite fence and start walking towards first base. Well, the field we're at has a wooden backboard. That ball likes to ping pong. so it hit to the left side and then ricocheted over, getting stuck between my son's feet. The catcher went for it. I don't believe it; I think it may have hit him, but I don't believe the catcher had trouble hitting the ball but by that time the runner had scored, and they called my son out on interference. Yeah, that was a hard pill to swallow for him and me. I've coached my kids this way; there are times when the batter is screwed.
Nick: Well, in that scenario, what the umpire needs to judge is whether your son, the batter, was paying attention to the ball or if he was just sort of absent-mindedly walking in that direction. Indifference equals intent. If you're not paying attention, then that was intentional. and now the interference rule is going to apply. but if you're observing a ball and trying to move away from it, you know. The ball takes a crazy bounce. Now I'm not going to penalize you because you were trying to get out of the way. Circumstances beyond your control caused the ball to end up at your feet.
James: So I also just want to add to that, and the reason I added two outs is because isn't there a difference when there are less than two outs? Isn't the runner out in that scenario?
Brent. in Little League if you're talking about the batter's interference. The batter is interfering with the play at home. If there are less than two outs, the runner is out. When there are two outs, the batter is always out.
James: Well, that's fair. That makes sense. That was definitely a learning moment. We all have them. And his 12-year-old self or his 11-year-old self learned to pay attention. Another scenario, since we're discussing home plate, is the one where the ball comes in on a pitch and the ball disappears. Nobody can find it. The ball is lodged in the umpire's gear. on those scenarios with an umpire interference situation, like that. How is that handled properly?
Brent: That is the umpire's interference. The ball is now considered out of play. When a pitched ball is out of play; it's a one-base award to runners on base.
James: and so it's not an umpire scenario where they just reset and put all the runners back. So would you guys go into that more? as far as umpire interference goes? Yeah, if you guys could expand on that, that'd be great.
Nick: Yeah. Umpire’s interference. Actually, the most common one you'll see is when the plate umpire interferes with something the catcher is trying to do, such as trying to throw a runner out for stealing down to second base. and when the catcher draws their arm back to throw, they bump into the umpire, and they either throw the ball wild or it falls out of their hand or something. That's umpire interference. and we just moved the runners back to wherever they were when the pitch was called. You know we'll still stand, but no Runners are going to be able to advance on that one. Another time umpires can interfere is on the big diamond, where the base umpire is stationed inside the infielders. The umpire could get hit by a batted ball, in which case that would be umpire interference. On the small diamond, the field umpire should never cause interference because they always start off stationed outside the infielders.
Brent: And on the big diamond, on umpire interference, the ball is immediately dead. The batter runner goes to first, and any runners forced to advance are advanced.
James: So what's the mechanic for that? If you're guilty of it and this has happened to you guys before?
Nick: Yes, I think I've only had it a few times where the umpire interfered with the catcher trying to make a play. In my experience, this really hasn't happened all that much.
Brent: And the thing is let's use the classic example of a runner advancing to second. If the out is made, you disregard the umpire's interference. If the catcher doesn't get the ball out, you call time. You put the runner back on first base. Yes, on the big diamond, I've been hit more than once. Some of our fields aren’t all that good, and the ball doesn't necessarily go in a straight line.
James: Really? (laughter) I'm going to switch back over to the obstruction thing. In the scenario I gave you, where a catcher is obstructing play at home plate, you guys said let the play develop. I already know what you're going to say, but this happens. So I have obstruction, but I have a 12-year-old coming home who thinks he's Pete Rose, and he drops his shoulder and knocks the catcher out. Yeah, I realize what to do about that, but what is the mechanic? What is the best way to handle that?
Nick: You call the play, and at the end of the play, you eject the offender for illegal contact. but you're going to call the play. It may be a situation where you're going to score the run but then you're going to dump the runner. Is that right, Brent?
Brent: Yep. If it's not obstruction, then a player has the ball, the runner goes through him, and it's an automatic out and automatic ejection.
James: Here's another one. What if he doesn't drop his shoulder but dives face first? I'm just doing this from experience. I've seen this. That's also dangerous play, and there's a rule against it. but I'm curious to know from a management standpoint. The mechanic is that you call the play and then call the player out for the illegal slide, or what?
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Nick: Well, if we're talking majors and below, yeah, the runners are out for the head-first slide.
James: There's a certain umpire floating around that doesn't really work anymore. We were out at a field that had, you guys might know this field that it's not active anymore, but the entire lot was sand. My runner coming from third tripped in the sand and landed face first on home plate, and he was called out. He tripped.
Nick: How do you know whether it was intentional or not? So the way I remember being taught, in a situation like that, it's still going to be considered a head-first slide, but let me change that scenario a little bit. We sometimes play on wet fields, and if it's a natural turf kind of field, you have a situation where a player initiates a slide and then the cleats dig into the mud and he gets flipped over. Well, in that case, I would not call him for a head-first slide because he showed me his intent was to slide properly.
James: Roger knows this because I called this son out at home one time for it.
Roger: The logic behind the ones where they say the trip came in, well, one of the things that was also said is that if you all of a sudden start allowing that, then you have a whole bunch of kids accidentally tripping and coming home. Yeah, we're going to call them out for a head-first slide.
James: Kind of jumping around here, moving back on the obstruction. Can we get into details and examples of what you would consider type A and type B obstruction?
Nick: Okay, well, first of all, rule 7.06 is the appropriate rule here. And there are two paragraphs or two sections in that rule, A and B. That's where we get the terminology: type A obstruction, type B obstruction. Type A obstruction is when the defense is making a play on the obstructed runner. Type B obstruction is when the defense is not making a play on the obstructed runner. Under type A obstruction, it's an immediate dead ball, and the umpire is going to award the runner at least one base beyond the last base that they legally touched. Under type B obstruction, it's a delayed dead ball. We're going to let the play continue to see what happens. If the runner does not advance to the base that the umpire thought he would have reached had their obstruction not occurred, then the umpire can award that. the runner advances to or beyond that base, then we're just going to ignore the obstruction.
Brent: Then you have the other one, which is that we have obstruction at first base. the ball's 25 feet behind second base in the center fielder's hands. No way on God's green earth would they have made it safely to second base had the obstruction not occurred. It's in the judgment of the umpire that they would have reached the base had the obstruction not occurred. And that's the second part of the obstruction rule that a lot of managers and coaches don't read. They automatically get the base. No, would they have gotten the base had the obstruction not occurred? no. So yeah, you don't give it to them.
James: Let's say a kid hits what would normally be a stand-up double as he’s rounding first base. I really liked what Nick said about being oblivious to what's happening as being intentional. But let's say that this runner is rounding first and collides with the first baseman, who's not paying attention, and gets tagged at second. Are we going to rule that an obstruction and I'll just allow him to keep second base, or can we actually give him third base?
Nick: Well, in this situation, when the obstruction occurred, they were not yet making a play on that runner, so it's type B. So we let the play proceed. At the end of the play, where would the runner have been had there not been obstruction? if the batter's runner was thrown out at second base on a close play. But if he’s 15-20 feet from the base, when the throw comes in, he wasn’t going to make it there anyway.
James: When the manager comes out, this happens. What about the obstruction at first? I mean, my runner ran into the first baseman. What’s your reply to that?
Brent: I am the umpire. James,you’re at the plate, and I’m at the bases. I see the obstruction at first, and I signal the obstruction. How do I signal the obstruction? I point at it and go, "That’s obstruction!" I just point it out and bring it back. Now I’m taking the runner to second since it’s my call at second base because I’m the base umpire. Now. My mechanics, even though it’s type B, because I don’t want a lot of stuff happening after the play. I got to type A deals because, in my judgment, I felt this was a banger, and second, I felt that they would have been safe had the obstruction not occurred. I go, “Time!” I point to it first and say, “I had obstruction at first. you second base.” I don't want all the hassles that go along with that.
Nick: Again, I agree with Brent's description there because, very technically, we should call the play that occurred, then call time, and then take whatever corrective action is necessary.
Brent. right. Because if you had four people, you know, on the field, is that okay? and you two hadn't gone out until the ball went to the outfield; basically, they're taking the play at second. I’m the first base umpire; I saw and signaled obstruction at first base, but maybe the second base umpire didn't really hear me, so they called the runner out. Well, I'm at first going time. We had obstruction at first. runner to second base.
James: So even if the runner's standing on second base, It's still time...
Brent: If a play is being made on him, yes.
James. It's kind of cut and dry here. Roger. Did you have something to add?
Roger: I'm just listening.
James: Let's talk about the fake tag and the decoy, or the Deke. I've heard that because that's an interesting thing you see a lot of in high school. I don't see a lot of it. Some of the higher-end Elite 12-year-old teams might try it. But what are we looking for here, and what's the difference?
Nick: Well, a fielder's just standing there pounding their glove as if they're imminently going to catch a throw that's your deke; he's trying to decoy the runner. A fake tag is an actual attempt to
apply a tag without the ball. There's one more thing we want to look at if the runner slides as a result of that fake tag. Now we definitely have obstruction, and we're going to have some words with the team about unsafe play because sliding is dangerous and hazardous. You can get injured when you're sliding, so that's why the fake tag is not allowed.
Brent: …and also If you have warned a player for a fake tag and they do it again, they have removed themselves from the game.
Nick: So the reason for that is you have reminded them what the rule is and they do it again, now they have willfully violated a rule.
James: I played ball, and I don't understand it. This all started, I don't know, eight to ten years ago. You got a runner at second, and for some reason—I don't know who's telling the kids to do this—you see shortstops popping their glove behind the runner to confuse the runner. You know what? When I played shortstop, I absolutely did not want that runner to know where I was standing. Why would I give that away? And, you know, that's an advantage, so I don't understand the thinking behind it.
Brent: Sometimes we umpires kind of chuckle under our breath.
James: …really? You really want that guy to know where you're standing? So we'll move on to the interference then, and Roger could if you'd read the one in here on the interference part A?
Roger: sure. So offensive interference is an act by a member of the team at bat that interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders, or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play. If the Umpire declares the batter, batter runner, or runner out for interference, all other runners shall return to the last base that was, in the judgment of the Umpire, legally touched at the time of the interference, unless otherwise provided by these rules.
James: The approved ruling is that interference does not have to be intentional to be there. What are some examples of that, guys? I mean, we could go on forever, but if you got a couple of hot ones?
Nick: Let me make a kind of editorial comment. In defining interference, the rule uses the word obstruct, and we wonder why people confuse interference and obstruction. You think they could clean that language up a little bit?
Brent: They could leave out obstruction and just say that impedes, hinders, or confuses would be just fine. Now what is a classic interference? is runner interference. Anytime the runner is struck by a batted ball, they're out. except Nick, do you want to go with the exceptions?
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Nick: a fairly batted ball,
Brent: Yes, the fair batted ball. That's why it always brings me back to the umpire's chuckling. The kids standing on third who are touching the bag and starting off. basically, and you know whether the ball is on the line or inside the line. so that they're in Fair territory. So somebody hits a screamer down the line; they get struck; they're out. If they've got contact with their left foot on the outside corner towards home plate and then start off the bag in foul territory and they get struck, that's a foul ball. That's again a chuckle moment for an umpire. It's like, Why are you doing that?
James: So then it goes on B, which is the defensive interference that is noted. the umpire's interference, which we discussed. Interestingly, only the plate umpire may interfere with the catcher and only after a cleanly caught ball or a pitched ball.
Brent: The deal is that on the batted ball, I was sort of waiting for Nick. When it is not the runner's interference, it passes the framework and then strikes the runner directly behind. Let's say the first baseman is playing in front of the line, and it goes through them because the runners are coming off first base...
Nick: Yeah, I was just waiting till we got through the definition before I wanted to talk about the exceptions.
James: They mentioned spectator interference. Have you guys seen that? Have you seen a lot of that at all in your careers? I guess it really depends on the park you're in.
Brent: In Little League, no, but in the Cubs game, everybody got upset at that spectator who reached over the field to play and the left field umpire did not call Spectator’s interference because it was at Wrigley Field.
James: So on any interference, the ball is dead, and how do we handle that as umpires? is it that's interference? You’re out?
Nick: Well, the first words out of your mouth are: “time! that's interference. The runner’s out.” and then if you have to move other runners back, you would point it down and say, “You back to second, you back to first,” or whatever. Like it says, on any interference, the ball is dead, except: catcher's interference, umpire's interference, and what's the last one in?
James: Batter's interference?
Nick: yeah. Catchers, batters, and plate umpires interfere. Those three are not immediate dead balls; they are delayed dead balls. Another one of these things that makes you chuckle if you go to Little League umpire schools and such, they tell you that Little League doesn't recognize delayed dead balls. That's the softball organization that uses that terminology. How many times in the Little League rule book do they talk about things being delayed dead balls?
James: Let's talk about this because a lot of umpires may not be aware of this: When there are several things happening at once, don't we as umpires have to take them in the order they happened? Here's an example. You get a batter that hits a screamer down the right field line. It's easily a stand-up triple, and he's rounding first, and this actually happened to me, guys. The first baseman reaches out and hugs him. holds, and then the kid breaks free and comes in. He would have been safe at third, but I got a head-first slide into third base. now. The questions are: a, because you're going to have to rule that on the field and you're going to get questions from the scorekeeper as well. How do we do that? The order of events is critical.and I'm curious about your guys' thoughts.
Brent: The way I would rule is you have the runner out going into third base with head first slide because Little League's number one priority is the safety of the player. That's why the American Pediatrics encouraged Little League to basically outlaw the head first slide. It's an unsafe act. I have had hand injuries and spinal injuries.
James: Oh, sure, I love that…
Brent. So, I'm sorry, head first slide at Majors and below. I'm sorry, son, even though they hugged you at first base, you're out, and you shouldn't have done that.
Nick: I agree with that. We've got the obstruction at first base, and hopefully the umpire will point at it and call out the obstruction.
James: I was flying solo on that one.
Brent: Oh, you've got all sorts of stuff, yeah, I got distracted in here, yeah.
Nick: Okay, the obstruction part, because it's type B, which is a delayed dead ball, and it's something that involves umpire judgment. The head first slide is a rulebook violation. That's black and white in a rule book. so there's no judgment to exercise on a head-first slide. You've got to call them out.
James: Now the next question is because you're going to get lots of questions from lots of people. You know the manager; you can explain that well. When the score book comes to you and you say, Well, does that mean he gets a double? How do I score that?
Brent: Oh, from a scoring standpoint?
James: Yeah. yeah.
Brent: It'd be a double.
Nick: That's the way I would score it, but it depends on the situation. If you're at your home league and it's people you know, I'll try to answer their questions properly. But when I get a question like that, like in an All-Star game or something, I just tell the scorekeeper. Hey, you're the scorekeeper, I'm just the umpire. You figure it out.
James: Then we have, uh, some rules here. 6.05. The batter is out when Roger, did you add that or did these guys add that? What was the significance of 6.05 there?
Roger: Um, let me see here. I added 6.05 because it said interference or I think I believe. Yes, if you look, the reason why I added the g, h, j, and I is that they actually did talk about different versions of interference. So like in 6.05g, the AR says if the bat is thrown into fair or foul territory and interferes with the defensive player attempting to make a play, interference to be called, whether intentional or not. This is referring to where the bat ends up lying after a play. So all of these were different versions of interference that were related to the batter. whereas in rule 7.06, those are runners, because rule seven deals with the runner in the Little League rule book, whereas rule 6 deals with the batter. So these were interference-type issues.
James: I don't know how many times I've poured over this book looking for the thrown bat. I don't know where this comes from; you guys have been around longer than I have. Was a thrown bat ever an out in baseball ever?
Nick: No.
Brent: has no place in the rule book and it never has been there.
James: So where'd that come from? Because I still get people saying, Oh, he threw the batter out, and I'm thinking where... It's an interesting history on that. Some of these alternate rules. You're like, What?
Nick: Well, I don't know where it comes from, but when I was coaching when my daughter was little, She was at bat, she hit the ball, she wildly released her bat, and a runner on third crossed the plate. I argued for the umpire to call my daughter out, so that we would get the run to score.
James: That's creative! I like it!
Brent: The ones that have come up are that we’ve had umpires want to remove the player for throwing the bat, and unless they're intentionally throwing the bat back at the catcher to prevent him from making a play or something along those lines, you can basically warn them. If you join a local league, you can somewhat deal with it how you want to. normally. I've gone in the past and went to the manager of the team. coach. Yeah, can you remove them and tell if the bat's being released and it's hitting the catcher or me? It's the umpire back there. Can we teach them how to do that correctly? but I actually had an umpire I was working with wanting to remove a player from an International Tournament game, i.e., the All-Stars, because they threw the bat. that's like. no. You can't do that, and I know this because, a long time ago, when I first started umpiring, I went all the way back to Williamsport. Williamsport said no; you can't do that.
James: So how I've handled that personally, and we all have our different ways of doing it, but what I've done is called attention to it by going to the manager and just letting him know that's a safety issue. and giving them a warning. The nice thing about warnings is that you get to decide. It's not a threat, but you get to decide with warnings how many to give. Most of the managers that I've worked with are very cool about it, and they'll go and talk to the kids. Hey, we just got a team warning. You need to pay attention, and usually that takes care of it.
Roger: So I had a situation at Junior's game where the kid threw the bat. I went to the manager and said, Hey, we can't have him throw the bat. He's throwing the bat and hitting me and the catcher once. comes up again and hits us again, and I said, Hey, what are we doing about this? He's like, I'm not going to do anything about it. I go, Okay, either you're going to do something about it or you're going to have the next coach on your bench do something about it. We had a discussion, and he decided to leave. invariably and cleaned up after that. and I did not get hit by another bat by that player.
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Brent: … and I've told Nick this also. Over the years, when I was at UIC, we removed players for doing that where it's coming back and hitting us and what I found, because the number one thing a youth player wants to do is not win. The number one thing they want to do is play the game. And because they're now not allowed to play the game, they feel that loss. One kid in particular I remember because he was just doing it all the time. I sat him down. I never saw that kid, his entire Little League career after that, throw that once.
James: We got the obstruction and we got the interference, and it's kind of making sense. It's sinking in. In our previous podcast, we talked about the rundown, the pickle, or whatever you call it. If you guys could help a little bit with the mechanics of what we talked about, how to position yourself with a partner to cover that. I'm speaking mainly of one for a rundown between first and second. It's enough for any human being to be standing there trying to watch whether a tag was made and that kind of stuff. let alone thinking about the potential for obstruction and interference. What are some rules of thumb as far as mechanics go from an umpire's standpoint? What's the best way to position yourself? You've got a lot to watch in a very short amount of time. I'm curious to know how you guys think, what goes through your mind, what you're thinking, and how you're reacting. Hopefully you have a partner that you're some, I mean you're somewhat working with, but I'm curious to know how you guys are doing, especially with the obstruction-interference situation. How are you going to see those things with regard to trying to see whether there was a tag or not?
Nick: Well, I guess I'll start off on this, assuming we have more than one umpire. Ideally, you want to position one umpire at each end of the rundown. You want one umpire on the outfield side the other umpire on the infield side. So now you've got pretty good visual coverage of everything. What you don't want to do is sprint back and forth with the runner. Just take a couple of steps and keep yourself under control. Don't let your adrenaline take off on you. and an important aspect, other than the fielders getting in the runner's way and possibly interfering, is that we also have to watch what the runner is doing. When the runner is reversing direction, they should be coming to the point where they're more in the baseline; that's the direct line between both bases. If they're going, they reverse direction and move a step or two toward the outfield. the next time they move another couple steps toward the outfield. Well, now they're out of the base path to avoid a tag.
Brent is part of this. You're going to have obstruction more on a rundown. The only time you would have interference is if a runner intentionally reached out with their hand or their arm to make contact with the ball so that the player couldn't receive it. The obstruction part of it is what happens a lot of times: someone who has not been taught correctly. So they've released the ball. Let's say they were running the runner towards second base. They've released the ball; now they're somewhat continuously going towards second base, and that runner turns around, and now they take a step. Well, they either make contact or they take a step to go around that player, who now does not have the ball. that would be an obstruction.
James: okay. Would it be interference on a batter in this rundown where, let's say, it's a flip to the first baseman, who goes to gun it; the runner sees it and takes off running back to second. first base guns to second, the batter hits the runner square in the back. There's the intentional part of actually trying to deflect the ball, but there's also one where they just get pegged.
Nick: But there's a point that I want to make about the first scenario we were talking about. When that runner who's in The Rundown gets obstructed, what type of obstruction is that? because depending on the runner when he was obstructed, that's an immediate dead ball, and they're going to be awarded at least one base beyond the last base they legally touched.
Brent: In this case, it's not in your judgment that they would have taken down the obstruction if it had not occurred because they were heading back towards first base. but I'm sorry they were already on first base in this case, and we're going to penalize the defense because of their actions. So the runner has advanced a second.
Nick: Sorry, James, that I had to break in there. What was your new scenario again?
James: Well, these develop so quickly, but I've had scenarios where the runner is now, because the balls were at first, breaking for second. the first baseman makes a throw to second, and it pegs the runner in the back. Is that nothing? What is that?
Nick: That's nothing. On a thrown ball, it has to be intentional. You have to see it. If, mechanics-wise, you see that happen, what do you do as an umpire? You throw the safe sign and declare that's nothing. You let people know. Yeah, there was something there. I saw it, and I'm telling you that's not a rule violation. that's nothing. so that hopefully they keep the managers in their dugouts.
James: Well. Good luck with that.
Nick: I'd like to throw to first base and give the runners lane interference. right? That's a different scenario.
James: You guys posted a just fantastic picture from the 2010 girls softball Western Regional Tournament. and you guys were there. If you could explain a little bit about what happened and how this transpired, I was told this is basically the poster for obstruction that Little League uses. It's a once-in-a-lifetime kind of situation, but I'd be curious if you guys could explain how this developed and whether these pictures that they gave me will be on the website. You'll be able to see this, but if you guys could just explain a little bit about what happened?
Nick: Hey, this was 2010. Cell phone cameras and all that kind of stuff, you know, weren’t as prevalent as they are today. but fortunately the smaller picture in the upper left of the page there shows one of the umpires on the crew for that game, and his wife was in the stands with a video camera. She cut a still frame out of the video, and that's the one that we're showing here, where we've got a circle around the ball here. and then the other labels show the fielders and the contact information here.
Brent: To describe it for the audio people. What had happened was that the home team was up three to two. The ball was hit to the outfield. The runner rounded third. the catchers set up in the line. straddling the line, up the line. Basically what happened was, as I said, the ball picture that's on this page on the left hand side shows the ball where the ball was when the contact was initially made. The picture on the right shows after the catcher actually received the ball, and the fact that the catcher's glove has the ball in it is behind the runner. You can pretty much figure that the runner made contact with the catcher before the ball got into the mit. The way things used to be taught was to always pay attention to where the ball was. You know if the ball's in the glove in front of the runner. We had nothing. at the balls in the glove behind the runner, we probably had obstruction. So in this case, we did. I happened to be sitting outside because we were hosting this tournament. I was sitting outside, and I was looking at this play from basically up the first baseline. In other words, first extend the baseline. from where I was sitting, and I actually saw the player slow down before even the initial contact was made. So pretty much, I had obstruction at that point before the plate umpire even called it. So yeah, this was an exciting one because the winner would go to Alpenrose for the girls softball World Series. Pendleton thought that they just won the game. Needless to say, the Pendleton manager somewhat removed himself from the game after this call. and the tournament director assigned me to babysit the manager for the rest of the game.
James: And this would have been, like, the top of the sixth or something?
Brent: This is the top of the sixth; Pendleton was the home team; had this been the third out, the game would have been over. Pendleton would have gone to Alpenrose.
James: But the score was Gilroy 11, Pendleton 3. So how did those…
Brent: Well, it ended up being a 3-3 because they actually retired and did not allow Gilroy to score another run. However, they didn't score any runs, so it ended up being 3-3 at the bottom of the sixth. Went into extra innings. and then the wheels just fell off for Pendleton.
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James: I heard that it took about a half hour to get the game back in gear. I also heard that everybody was screaming and shouting on the field when the kids came out, and how do you guys handle messes like that as umpires?
Nick: Well, this was a very confusing situation, which was partially fueled by the plate umpire, who did not have very crisp mechanics to make the call. The guy that was working to plate worked a lot of ASA softball games. used ASA mechanics in calling this obstruction. If following the Little League mechanic, this was type A. They're making a play in the runner; it would have been time for an obstruction. But that's not the way this other organization teaches to call that play. So then, of course, Pendleton thought they were going to win the game, so there was all of that brouhaha with it. And after the game, the interesting part—I don't know if it was a day or two after the game—we got word that one of the Pendleton parents was an attorney and threatened Little League with a suit.
James: Oh, come on.
Nick: and I had received this still from the video about the same time that we were able to send that back to Williamsport. and say hey. Here's the play. That was the end of it. We didn't hear anything more after that. Well, you've got to keep your cool, obviously. which is very tough to do. I've been in a couple of situations like this—not exactly this kind of situation, but heated situations of this magnitude. I did not do as good a job keeping my cool as I should have. You mentioned, I think, James, about just standing back and kind of waiting until everything settles down on its own. Well, that's one thing you can do. Because it was a regional tournament, we had tournament staff there. The umpires had resources outside the fence that could help them get this under control.
Brent: And that's what happened at this particular tournament.
Nick: There is one other thing maybe we should cover, James. Can we go back to the definition of interference, and I think it was paragraph A. If the umpire declares the batter, batter runner, or runner out for interference, what is it that goes to rule? 7.09. We made some comments earlier about a runner touched by a fairly batted ball being out. There are a couple of exceptions, and 7.09k says that if a fair ball goes through or by an infielder and touches a runner immediately behind that infielder or touches a runner after having been deflected, that's not going to be interference. So what does through mean in the rule? Through beans literally go between the fielder's legs. What does BY mean? That the ball goes to either side of the fielder and they weren't able to catch it and then deflected, well, that's pretty obvious. The reasoning here is that the runner has the expectation that the fielder is going to catch the ball. If the fielder doesn't catch the ball, we're not going to punish the runner for that. but in making this determination, whether it's interference or not. The umpire also has to look and make sure there was no other fielder in position to make a play on that batted ball. example: a ball hit into the hole on the third base side. The third baseman charges up, misses the ball, the runner goes behind him, and it hits him. The shortstop was sitting back there, waiting for the ball to get to him. In that situation, there's going to be interference. But if the shortstop wasn't there in position to make a play on that ball, now that's not going to be interference.
Brent: That's one of those situations where, no matter what the runner does, they're pretty much hosed.
James: So what about a scenario? You got a runner at second. You get a light blooper to the shortstop, and the pitcher goes out for it, misses it, and then it hits, and the shortstop is set up to get it, but then the ball hits the runner. Is the runner out in that situation?
Nick: Well, remember how I said early on in this that only one fielder gets protection? So if the pitcher went back for the ball or the pitcher actually touched it, the pitcher and the player are going to get the protection, and since they erred on it, we're not going to penalize the runner for the pitcher's error. Even though there was another player there ready to go, now we have a deflected ball. It's not a batted ball. It's not the initial play on a batted ball. So, like I said, we're not going to punish the runner for the pitcher’s error.
James: What I'm curious about years ago, we had a league pretty high up. I think they were regionals and the third base coach assisted the runner. and you guys know what I'm talking about. and what I'm curious about is, does the assistance situation, is that considered interference from the offense on that or is that just an assist. Because I know you can't do it but I'm curious. Is there actually a definition of it?
Nick: There's a separate rule that covers that. It's not considered interference. The interesting part of that is that this was at a regional tournament. So there were probably six umpires on that crew.The third base umpire was sizing up what was going on there. and he's telling the coach. Coach, don't do it. The coach did it anyway.
Brent: They physically assisted a runner, which a base coach cannot do. They cannot physically assist.
James: Can anyone physically assist a runner because somebody told me about a kid who broke their ankle and hit a home run and broke their ankle. I think it was a softball game. The girl had hit a home run and was rounding second when she twisted and broke her ankle and fell. and the infield defenders picked her up, brought her to third, and then brought her home.
Brent: That was an NCAA where the players actually went to the umpires and said, Yeah, what can we do? The offense couldn't do anything. but in this case, the defense could.
James: What I want to do then is just kind of go around the room real quick and give some parting comments. If you guys have anything that you think maybe we missed or that we need to touch on, now's the time to bring it up. But we'll start with Brent. Is there anything that you'd like to add?
Brent: Most people might remember it from the 2013 World Series. There was an obstruction call on the Boston third baseman. Jim Joyce was the umpire at third base; he signaled obstruction. The Cardinal Runner, attempting to advance to home plate, basically stumbled over the third baseman, who had missed the throw down the third, and went to home. There was somewhat of a bang at home plate, which the catcher thought they had the out and the umpire signaled safe. That's about the only thing the umpire did wrong at the plate. but immediately after signaling safe, he pointed to third base, saying that was obstruction. Again, for Major League Baseball, professional umpires, well, they don't get this call. You know, they just don't get this call. So you know the correct call would have been, “Time!” Point at third. “That's obstruction. you score!. That's the correct way of doing it. So a lot of people remember that play.
Nick: You know, in reviewing this stuff and putting some notes together in preparation for this, One thing that kind of stuck out at me is that. You know obstruction is a fairly simple rule, actually. There are only a few rules that mention it. For interference, man, I've got like five pages of notes. the rules to talk about interference, and you know them. We didn't talk about base coaches interference. other batter's interference situations. Especially the batter's interference, like, okay, you got to run around third and the ball, the pitch gets past the catcher, and the batter just stands there in the batter's box. They're trying to make a play on that runner coming in. We didn't even talk about that scenario. Yeah, there's a lot of interference. So you could probably, for a future podcast, continue on the interference, or maybe even just do one solely focused on interference.
Brent: But the other one also when I was starting umpiring and the parts of the rule books and the way they're written. I don't know if it's still in there, but there's a part on interference that talks about no runners may advance or score, except those forced to advance. And that's like, how in the world do you score a run on interference? There's only one. It's on the big diamond. the umpire's inside. Bases are loaded, and they get struck by a batted ball. [Laughter] Ball’s dead. You advance all the runners one base, and hopefully that wasn't a tight tie game at the bottom of the seventh with two outs.
James: You're going to need some help getting to the parking lot on that one. Roger, anything to add?
Roger: I don't have a lot to add. the only thing I would say is that for like an opposite but really, the way I look at things, it's generally trying to make what should have happened right. when there's interference, obstruction, or what have you. Just trying to correct for the error or the misplay by whichever offending team occurred. I think that's the simplest way I try to do it on the field. to make it because these rules could be really confusing or daunting for somebody who's just starting out. So the easy way is, how do I make it right? How do I fix it, and then what rules support me in fixing it? So that's what I took away from this.
James: I think Nick nailed it. The reality is that this is actually a daylong class that we could spend on obstruction and interference alone, with a break for lunch. You know I mean to try covering all of this in a light and fun way in an hour is really just kind of barely scratching the surface. So yes, it would be useful in future podcasts to sort of circle back around and maybe tie some of these concepts to future podcasts. I want to thank each and every one of you for your time tonight. I really appreciate the time and the passion that you all have for the game and for these kids, as well as for helping me use this medium of the podcast to get it out there. And to the people that are just starting, maybe you've got a game tomorrow or whatever, the only way you're going to learn is by doing. Hopefully you meet some people like I have who can mentor you, answer questions and be available. I don't know how many times I've heard somebody say, You know, that's a once in a lifetime thing. You know, in my 20-plus-year career, I could tell you I've had plenty of those. Lots of one-time things you know? That's why we keep coming back, so thank you guys again for your time, your effort, and your passion for this. We'll do more for sure.
Roger: Thank you, James.
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James: Then, of course, Roger, you know. Throughout this whole thing, even when I came to you with this idea six months ago, you've supported me and helped me make this thing as good as it can be, so thank you very much, Roger.
Roger: Oh, you're welcome; this is a fun experience.
James: So we've got more podcasts coming. Please stay tuned. They'll be out soon. Our hope is to get at least six or ten out by the end of this year's spring baseball season. So that's the goal. Hopefully, we get there. So here's your disclaimer. The rules and opinions discussed here are personal interpretations from seasoned umpires and coaches. The podcast is neither directly endorsed nor are we compensated by any youth sports body, including Little League baseball. Actual applications of these rules and coaching ideas may vary depending on your location or your league's official rules. so please discuss those with your local umpire chiefs and league presidents. you know. That's always a good idea. You might want to talk to the people who know about the rules before you start doing them yourself. That's why we're doing this. So anyway, thank you so much. Again, Roger, thanks for your help. and we'll see you next time.
Roger: See ya!
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